Butch can't find the "reply to all" button...
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Graber, Stephen sggraber@hsc.wvu.edu wrote:
Basically I agree with Gunnar, more often than not I do the full foot down stop thing too, it's just that I don't think the "momentary stop then roll-through" (what I refered to as a track stand, mine aren't good enough to be longer than momentary!) should constitute failing to stop at the stop sign- the point is the law says you need to stop and look both ways, not that you must put your foot down (or stop your engine!).
I will defer to Frank on what some places are calling these.
I don't call them track stands, more of the "rolling stop" thing.
Guess we might discuss what one should do when faced with a long line of cars at a traffic light than can be safely passed on the left! But let's not, and let's not notice what we each do then either!
Don't want to go there right now... nope.
------ _0 ------ _ <,_ ---- (*)/ (*) ________________________________________ From: Gunnar Shogren [gshogren@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 2:23 PM To: Graber, Stephen Cc: Frank Gmeindl; bikeboard Board Subject: Re: [Bikeboard] Police Chief Talking Points
Good list. I too ride on the occasional sidewalk, but not really downtown, more in short instances like what you're talking about Butch. But perhaps we're not going to be able to have that cake and eat it too... time will tell.
I'll have to disagree w/ you on "track stands", though I will recant a little at the end... Track stands are not good for the following reasons- * Track stands are ambiguous. "What's he doing? Where's he going? Is he going to fall? Is he trying to impress someone?" * Putting a foot down sends a clear signal to other motorists. I have stopped. I am abiding, Dude. * Although it looks like being in a track stand would make you quicker out of the gate, a lot of times this is not true. Depending on where you are in your "balance sway", which way your wheel is pointed at that moment, which way you're looking at that moment, etc. At a full stop I can react quicker and more predictably w/ one foot on the ground and pedal and body in the ready position. I can also signal w/ my hands to others if need be, most folks won't try that whilst in the track stand.
Since taking the TS101 course, then thinking about the way I ride, I have pretty much stopped doing the track stand, and bark at others when they do as well, especially when they come out of the stand and they're all over the place. Try the real stop in a few places that you normally track stand (in a turning lane, turning at a intersection) and I think you'll find that most others (cars and peds) treat you differently. More positively I would say.
I will say that I do go through intersection in a "momentary stop then roll-through", but technically I don't call this a track stand.
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Graber, Stephen sggraber@hsc.wvu.edu wrote:
Looks like a good list to me. I assume there will also be encouragement to cite motorists for violations that endanger cyclists. I'd encourage Damien to describe "track stands" to Chief Preston. Many cyclists can use that technique to lawfully stop at stop signs etc. I once received a ticket for "running" a stop sign- in fact I had ceased all forward motion and looked bothways (Wilson & Grand, a dangerous intersection) but the officer told the judge I never put my foot down and that was that! (The judge liked it even less when I grumbled that motorists don't have to turn their engines off at stop signs............). I'm glad to see restraint suggested for riding on side walks. Some places that's our safest option. On my commute to Health Sciences I ride up the side- walk along the main entrance by the Alumni Center rather than risk the high speed traffic in the dual lane approach.
That's my 2 cents! Butch
Stephen G. Graber
Biochem & Mol Pharmacology
PO Box 9142, HSN-3122
West Virginia University
Morgantown, WV 26506-9142
phone: 304-293-2305
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------ _ <,_
---- (*)/ (*)
From: bikeboard-bounces@cheat.org [bikeboard-bounces@cheat.org] On Behalf Of Frank Gmeindl [frank.gmeindl@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 12:05 PM To: bikeboard Board Subject: [Bikeboard] Police Chief Talking Points
Bicycle Board Members, Damien will be meeting with Chief Preston Friday to discuss enforcement. I will meet with Damien tomorrow to discuss the attached talking points that I am recommending. I would appreciate your comments and recommendations for improving these talking points.
Frank D. Gmeindl Chairman, Morgantown Municipal Bicycle Board LCI #1703 491 WilsonAvenue Morgantown, WV 26501 304-376-0446 Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles _______________________________________________ Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
On Oct 10, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Gunnar Shogren wrote:
Butch can't find the "reply to all" button...
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Graber, Stephen sggraber@hsc.wvu.edu wrote:
Basically I agree with Gunnar, more often than not I do the full foot down stop thing too, it's just that I don't think the "momentary stop then roll-through" (what I refered to as a track stand, mine aren't good enough to be longer than momentary!) should constitute failing to stop at the stop sign- the point is the law says you need to stop and look both ways, not that you must put your foot down (or stop your engine!).
I will defer to Frank on what some places are calling these.
WV code: 17C-1-52. Stop. "Stop," when required, means complete cessation from movement.
Morgantown code:
301.38 STOP. "Stop" when required, means complete cessation from movement. (WVaC 17C-1-52)
(You can find these on BikeMorgantown.com as well as learn them in TS101.) This is the definition of "stop" according to WV and Morgantown code. The moot point is whether a track stand constitutes complete cessation from movement. Certainly, if one of your feet is planted on the ground, you can argue that you were stopped. OTOH, I once watched Saysana Inthavongsa casually drink a whole 12 oz. coke while track standing in the Pt. Marion Foodland parking lot.
I don't call them track stands, more of the "rolling stop" thing.
Guess we might discuss what one should do when faced with a long line of cars at a traffic light than can be safely passed on the left! But let's not, and let's not notice what we each do then either!
Don't want to go there right now... nope.
Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles. Same Roads, Same Rights, Same Rules.
------ _0 ------ _ <,_ ---- (*)/ (*) ________________________________________ From: Gunnar Shogren [gshogren@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 2:23 PM To: Graber, Stephen Cc: Frank Gmeindl; bikeboard Board Subject: Re: [Bikeboard] Police Chief Talking Points
Good list. I too ride on the occasional sidewalk, but not really downtown, more in short instances like what you're talking about Butch. But perhaps we're not going to be able to have that cake and eat it too... time will tell.
I'll have to disagree w/ you on "track stands", though I will recant a little at the end... Track stands are not good for the following reasons-
- Track stands are ambiguous. "What's he doing? Where's he going?
Is he going to fall? Is he trying to impress someone?"
- Putting a foot down sends a clear signal to other motorists. I
have stopped. I am abiding, Dude.
- Although it looks like being in a track stand would make you
quicker out of the gate, a lot of times this is not true. Depending on where you are in your "balance sway", which way your wheel is pointed at that moment, which way you're looking at that moment, etc. At a full stop I can react quicker and more predictably w/ one foot on the ground and pedal and body in the ready position. I can also signal w/ my hands to others if need be, most folks won't try that whilst in the track stand.
Since taking the TS101 course, then thinking about the way I ride, I have pretty much stopped doing the track stand, and bark at others when they do as well, especially when they come out of the stand and they're all over the place. Try the real stop in a few places that you normally track stand (in a turning lane, turning at a intersection) and I think you'll find that most others (cars and peds) treat you differently. More positively I would say.
I will say that I do go through intersection in a "momentary stop then roll-through", but technically I don't call this a track stand.
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Graber, Stephen sggraber@hsc.wvu.edu wrote:
Looks like a good list to me. I assume there will also be encouragement to cite motorists for violations that endanger cyclists. I'd encourage Damien to describe "track stands" to Chief Preston. Many cyclists can use that technique to lawfully stop at stop signs etc. I once received a ticket for "running" a stop sign- in fact I had ceased all forward motion and looked bothways (Wilson & Grand, a dangerous intersection) but the officer told the judge I never put my foot down and that was that! (The judge liked it even less when I grumbled that motorists don't have to turn their engines off at stop signs............). I'm glad to see restraint suggested for riding on side walks. Some places that's our safest option. On my commute to Health Sciences I ride up the side- walk along the main entrance by the Alumni Center rather than risk the high speed traffic in the dual lane approach.
That's my 2 cents! Butch
Stephen G. Graber
Biochem & Mol Pharmacology
PO Box 9142, HSN-3122
West Virginia University
Morgantown, WV 26506-9142
phone: 304-293-2305
------ _0
------ _ <,_
---- (*)/ (*)
From: bikeboard-bounces@cheat.org [bikeboard-bounces@cheat.org] On Behalf Of Frank Gmeindl [frank.gmeindl@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 12:05 PM To: bikeboard Board Subject: [Bikeboard] Police Chief Talking Points
Bicycle Board Members, Damien will be meeting with Chief Preston Friday to discuss enforcement. I will meet with Damien tomorrow to discuss the attached talking points that I am recommending. I would appreciate your comments and recommendations for improving these talking points.
Frank D. Gmeindl Chairman, Morgantown Municipal Bicycle Board LCI #1703 491 WilsonAvenue Morgantown, WV 26501 304-376-0446 Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles _______________________________________________ Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Funny thing, is that I can put my foot down and NOT stop. What then?
Laws. Who needs them? Remember "Obedience is Freedom" kids.
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Frank Gmeindl frank.gmeindl@comcast.net wrote:
On Oct 10, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Gunnar Shogren wrote:
Butch can't find the "reply to all" button...
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Graber, Stephen sggraber@hsc.wvu.edu wrote:
Basically I agree with Gunnar, more often than not I do the full foot down stop thing too, it's just that I don't think the "momentary stop then roll-through" (what I refered to as a track stand, mine aren't good enough to be longer than momentary!) should constitute failing to stop at the stop sign- the point is the law says you need to stop and look both ways, not that you must put your foot down (or stop your engine!).
I will defer to Frank on what some places are calling these.
WV code: 17C-1-52. Stop. "Stop," when required, means complete cessation from movement.
Morgantown code:
301.38 STOP. "Stop" when required, means complete cessation from movement. (WVaC 17C-1-52)
(You can find these on BikeMorgantown.com as well as learn them in TS101.) This is the definition of "stop" according to WV and Morgantown code. The moot point is whether a track stand constitutes complete cessation from movement. Certainly, if one of your feet is planted on the ground, you can argue that you were stopped. OTOH, I once watched Saysana Inthavongsa casually drink a whole 12 oz. coke while track standing in the Pt. Marion Foodland parking lot.
I don't call them track stands, more of the "rolling stop" thing.
Guess we might discuss what one should do when faced with a long line of cars at a traffic light than can be safely passed on the left! But let's not, and let's not notice what we each do then either!
Don't want to go there right now... nope.
Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles. Same Roads, Same Rights, Same Rules.
------ _0 ------ _ <,_ ---- (*)/ (*) ________________________________________ From: Gunnar Shogren [gshogren@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 2:23 PM To: Graber, Stephen Cc: Frank Gmeindl; bikeboard Board Subject: Re: [Bikeboard] Police Chief Talking Points
Good list. I too ride on the occasional sidewalk, but not really downtown, more in short instances like what you're talking about Butch. But perhaps we're not going to be able to have that cake and eat it too... time will tell.
I'll have to disagree w/ you on "track stands", though I will recant a little at the end... Track stands are not good for the following reasons- * Track stands are ambiguous. "What's he doing? Where's he going? Is he going to fall? Is he trying to impress someone?" * Putting a foot down sends a clear signal to other motorists. I have stopped. I am abiding, Dude. * Although it looks like being in a track stand would make you quicker out of the gate, a lot of times this is not true. Depending on where you are in your "balance sway", which way your wheel is pointed at that moment, which way you're looking at that moment, etc. At a full stop I can react quicker and more predictably w/ one foot on the ground and pedal and body in the ready position. I can also signal w/ my hands to others if need be, most folks won't try that whilst in the track stand.
Since taking the TS101 course, then thinking about the way I ride, I have pretty much stopped doing the track stand, and bark at others when they do as well, especially when they come out of the stand and they're all over the place. Try the real stop in a few places that you normally track stand (in a turning lane, turning at a intersection) and I think you'll find that most others (cars and peds) treat you differently. More positively I would say.
I will say that I do go through intersection in a "momentary stop then roll-through", but technically I don't call this a track stand.
On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Graber, Stephen sggraber@hsc.wvu.edu wrote:
Looks like a good list to me. I assume there will also be encouragement to cite motorists for violations that endanger cyclists. I'd encourage Damien to describe "track stands" to Chief Preston. Many cyclists can use that technique to lawfully stop at stop signs etc. I once received a ticket for "running" a stop sign- in fact I had ceased all forward motion and looked bothways (Wilson & Grand, a dangerous intersection) but the officer told the judge I never put my foot down and that was that! (The judge liked it even less when I grumbled that motorists don't have to turn their engines off at stop signs............). I'm glad to see restraint suggested for riding on side walks. Some places that's our safest option. On my commute to Health Sciences I ride up the side- walk along the main entrance by the Alumni Center rather than risk the high speed traffic in the dual lane approach.
That's my 2 cents! Butch
Stephen G. Graber
Biochem & Mol Pharmacology
PO Box 9142, HSN-3122
West Virginia University
Morgantown, WV 26506-9142
phone: 304-293-2305
------ _0
------ _ <,_
---- (*)/ (*)
From: bikeboard-bounces@cheat.org [bikeboard-bounces@cheat.org] On Behalf Of Frank Gmeindl [frank.gmeindl@comcast.net] Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 12:05 PM To: bikeboard Board Subject: [Bikeboard] Police Chief Talking Points
Bicycle Board Members, Damien will be meeting with Chief Preston Friday to discuss enforcement. I will meet with Damien tomorrow to discuss the attached talking points that I am recommending. I would appreciate your comments and recommendations for improving these talking points.
Frank D. Gmeindl Chairman, Morgantown Municipal Bicycle Board LCI #1703 491 WilsonAvenue Morgantown, WV 26501 304-376-0446 Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles _______________________________________________ Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
-
Frank Gmeindl -
Gunnar Shogren