Does anyone have a record that the BB recommended to the Traffic Commission a center line on the railtrail? I cannot find any such recommendation in my records, but perhaps I am missing some files.
Background: center lines have appeared and one citizen has been told that this was the call of the BB. I doubt this and I want the record to be clear.
Greg
Yes, this was presented to the TC on June 13, 2007. I've attached the file that describes the outcome of this TC meeting, look at (4). I haven't been on the rail trail since the change occurred. Did they put strips in congested areas as we recommended, or did they strip the whole rail trail?
-Jonathan
Greg Good wrote:
Does anyone have a record that the BB recommended to the Traffic Commission a center line on the railtrail? I cannot find any such recommendation in my records, but perhaps I am missing some files.
Background: center lines have appeared and one citizen has been told that this was the call of the BB. I doubt this and I want the record to be clear.
Greg
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Subject: TC meeting outcome From: Frank Gmeindl fgmeindl@verizon.net Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 21:26:13 -0400 To: bikeboard@cheat.org
Bike Board Members,
Our interaction with the Traffic Commission tonight (13-May) was probably the most successful yet.
1. Education The TC members unanimously agreed to start their next meeting 1 hour early to participate in the Intro to Safe Cycling course for planners and public officials. (This is the presentation whose draft I sent you before our last meeting. I will ask for your feedback on the final before I present it to the TC.) The next TC meeting is Wednesday, 11-July, 5:30 PM.
2. Replacement Members The TC agreed with our recommendations of Autumn Bryson, Gunnar Shogren, Sam Stone and Alice Vernon as replacement members.
3. Bike-and-Chevron markings On behalf of the Infrastructure Committee, Chip presented the attached recommendation for placement of the Bike-and-Chevron markings. As you can see on the attached, we categorized the recommended streets into city streets, state or county road under DOH jurisdiction and intersections of city and DOH roads. The Traffic Commission asked us to prioritize the city streets and to prioritize the other roads and give the prioritized lists to Terry Hough. She agreed to present the recommendation to the WV DOH and report back to the TC and Bike Board. The TC is definitely behind this and wants to get at least some of it done.
4. Rail trail signs and stripes (First part of Sam Stone's request) The TC accepted our recommendation to install "Keep Right" signs at all trail entrances and voted to request BOPARC to implement. They discussed extensively our striping recommendation. They voted to recommend to BOPARC that they install appropriate stripes on congested sections of the trail.
5. Second part of Sam Stone's request I reported that Stone's request was congruent with our February Bike-and-Chevron recommendations (Broad Goal 1 Pilot Project 1) but that he identified some additional routes. I pointed out that some of both of our and Sam's routes are outside the city limits and all of them are state roads. We have the list of routes but I didn't provide it. I suggested that we provide it after the city implements the recommendations discussed in item #3 above. They agreed.
ACTION ITEM The Infrastructure Committee will prioritize the Bike-under-Chevron recommended locations and provide the prioritized lists to Terry Hough.
Frank
I studied the rail-trail changes about 9 hours ago and here are the results of my study.
1). The striped lines begin at 4th Street on the Caperton Trail and continue to the kiosk which is right before where the trail turns into gravel.
2). The stripped lines start at the beginning of Deckers Creek Trail and continue all the way to the intersection with Deckers Creek Rd.
3). In general, the stripes are not properly centered in the trail, this leaves more room on one side of the trail than on the other side. Also, the ends of the stripes are not always perpendicular to one another creating a wavy effect.
4). The stripes are not trail appropriate, but rather are similar to the ones designated for highways. There are approximately 10 feet long and about 4 inches wide. (note: This is a just an estimate.) The MUTCD recommends stripes that are 3 feet long for shared-use paths ([Section 9B.01] or in the newest MUTCD [Section 9C.03]).
5). The stripes are spaced approximately 10 feet apart from each other. The MUTCD recommends a 1-to-3 segment-to-gap ratio. Given the present stripe size that would be 30 feet, however, if the trail was appropriately striped that would be 9 feet.
6). The stripes are white, but both the MUTCD and the AASHTO recommend a "100-mm (4-inch) wide "yellow" center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel (from AASHTO)".
Summary: The biggest problem with the way the stripes were applied is that they are not appropriate stripes for a rail-trail and they are too close together based on their length. No wonder people are complaining about getting dizzy. Also, the intention of these stripes was to provide feedback to people in congested areas to stay to the right, not to make the rail-trail look like a very weird 70 mph freeway. Furthermore, because the stripes weren't properly centered people tend to walk towards the center on the less wide side. AASHTO provides a good explanation of what we wanted to accomplish:
A designer should consider a 100-mm (4-inch) wide yellow center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel. This stripe should be broken where adequate passing sight distance exists, and solid in other locations, or where passing by bicycles should be discouraged. This may be particularly beneficial in the following circumstances: (1) for heavy volumes of bicycles and/or other users, (2) on curves with restricted sight distance, and (3) on unlighted paths where nighttime riding is expected. White edge lines can also be very beneficial where bicycle traffic is expected during early evening hours.
Did we accomplish this goal? Based on my real-world experience of riding on the trail today I was appalled. Because of BOPARC's attempt at reinventing the wheel, we have created a situation that actually makes it harder for a bicyclist to adequately identify travelers coming from the opposite direction because of the distraction that the striped lines create; i.e. this is a less safe situation. Furthermore, it was my understanding that these stripes were only going to be placed in congested areas, and augmented by signage.
I am not sure how to finish this message, but I think this indicates some serious problems with the communication channels that exist in this City. You would have thought that BOPARC would have know the appropriate application to use on a rail-trail, and they would have asked or have been told what application to use if they didn't know, but this certainly doesn't seem to be the case. I am looking forward to learning more information about what went wrong from those who know, so we won't have a repeat of this in the future!
-Jonathan
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote:
Yes, this was presented to the TC on June 13, 2007. I've attached the file that describes the outcome of this TC meeting, look at (4). I haven't been on the rail trail since the change occurred. Did they put strips in congested areas as we recommended, or did they strip the whole rail trail?
-Jonathan
Greg Good wrote:
Does anyone have a record that the BB recommended to the Traffic Commission a center line on the railtrail? I cannot find any such recommendation in my records, but perhaps I am missing some files.
Background: center lines have appeared and one citizen has been told that this was the call of the BB. I doubt this and I want the record to be clear.
Greg
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Overheard as Betsy and I passed a small family the other day- "stay in your lane Emily so they can pass."
Too bad it is- Not centered. Not just in the congested areas. Strangely wavy, though hardly producing a "dizzying" effect unless you're really fixated on it I suppose.
I don't think that it is- A problem for cyclists identifying folks in the other direction unless they themselves are going too fast on the rail-trail and/or fixated on the stripes (look around, enjoy the scenery...).
Would be interesting to learn how it went from our recommendation to their implementation though.
On 7/8/08, Jonathan Rosenbaum freesource@cheat.org wrote:
I studied the rail-trail changes about 9 hours ago and here are the results of my study.
I see no mention of the total numbers of "stripes". I think we really need that number please.
:)
1). The striped lines begin at 4th Street on the Caperton Trail and continue to the kiosk which is right before where the trail turns into gravel.
2). The stripped lines start at the beginning of Deckers Creek Trail and continue all the way to the intersection with Deckers Creek Rd.
3). In general, the stripes are not properly centered in the trail, this leaves more room on one side of the trail than on the other side. Also, the ends of the stripes are not always perpendicular to one another creating a wavy effect.
4). The stripes are not trail appropriate, but rather are similar to the ones designated for highways. There are approximately 10 feet long and about 4 inches wide. (note: This is a just an estimate.) The MUTCD recommends stripes that are 3 feet long for shared-use paths ([Section 9B.01] or in the newest MUTCD [Section 9C.03]).
5). The stripes are spaced approximately 10 feet apart from each other. The MUTCD recommends a 1-to-3 segment-to-gap ratio. Given the present stripe size that would be 30 feet, however, if the trail was appropriately striped that would be 9 feet.
6). The stripes are white, but both the MUTCD and the AASHTO recommend a "100-mm (4-inch) wide "yellow" center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel (from AASHTO)".
Summary: The biggest problem with the way the stripes were applied is that they are not appropriate stripes for a rail-trail and they are too close together based on their length. No wonder people are complaining about getting dizzy. Also, the intention of these stripes was to provide feedback to people in congested areas to stay to the right, not to make the rail-trail look like a very weird 70 mph freeway. Furthermore, because the stripes weren't properly centered people tend to walk towards the center on the less wide side. AASHTO provides a good explanation of what we wanted to accomplish:
A designer should consider a 100-mm (4-inch) wide yellow center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel. This stripe should be broken where adequate passing sight distance exists, and solid in other locations, or where passing by bicycles should be discouraged. This may be particularly beneficial in the following circumstances: (1) for heavy volumes of bicycles and/or other users, (2) on curves with restricted sight distance, and (3) on unlighted paths where nighttime riding is expected. White edge lines can also be very beneficial where bicycle traffic is expected during early evening hours. Did we accomplish this goal? Based on my real-world experience of riding on the trail today I was appalled. Because of BOPARC's attempt at reinventing the wheel, we have created a situation that actually makes it harder for a bicyclist to adequately identify travelers coming from the opposite direction because of the distraction that the striped lines create; i.e. this is a less safe situation. Furthermore, it was my understanding that these stripes were only going to be placed in congested areas, and augmented by signage.
I am not sure how to finish this message, but I think this indicates some serious problems with the communication channels that exist in this City. You would have thought that BOPARC would have know the appropriate application to use on a rail-trail, and they would have asked or have been told what application to use if they didn't know, but this certainly doesn't seem to be the case. I am looking forward to learning more information about what went wrong from those who know, so we won't have a repeat of this in the future!
-Jonathan
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote: Yes, this was presented to the TC on June 13, 2007. I've attached the file that describes the outcome of this TC meeting, look at (4). I haven't been on the rail trail since the change occurred. Did they put strips in congested areas as we recommended, or did they strip the whole rail trail?
-Jonathan
Greg Good wrote:
Does anyone have a record that the BB recommended to the Traffic Commission a center line on the railtrail? I cannot find any such recommendation in my records, but perhaps I am missing some files.
Background: center lines have appeared and one citizen has been told that this was the call of the BB. I doubt this and I want the record to be clear.
Greg
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
On my spying mission today at the Bicycle Parking meeting, I learned from an unnamed source - David ;) - that also BOPARC was upset to discover the striping when they came back from their vacation. Apparently Lyle Mathews from the Signs and Signals Division of Morgantown applied the striping during this time period. This doesn't explain the whole story, but at least we have a better picture of who was involved.
I want to add that unlike what Gunnar is insinuating it's really not just an issue of cyclists being fixated on the stripes (although it's hard not to be if you happen to have peripheral vision), failing to look at scenery, or even a speed issue. (Should we have installed traffic calming speed bumps or narrowed the trail?) Apparently many pedestrians and skaters are not happy with the situation either. As for bicyclists, if you are scanning and looking far ahead as you should be doing, people in the distance are now less visible than they were prior to the change.
-Jonathan
gunn4r Shogren wrote:
Overheard as Betsy and I passed a small family the other day- "stay in your lane Emily so they can pass."
Too bad it is- Not centered. Not just in the congested areas. Strangely wavy, though hardly producing a "dizzying" effect unless you're really fixated on it I suppose.
I don't think that it is- A problem for cyclists identifying folks in the other direction unless they themselves are going too fast on the rail-trail and/or fixated on the stripes (look around, enjoy the scenery...).
Would be interesting to learn how it went from our recommendation to their implementation though.
On 7/8/08, Jonathan Rosenbaum freesource@cheat.org wrote:
I studied the rail-trail changes about 9 hours ago and here are the results of my study.
I see no mention of the total numbers of "stripes". I think we really need that number please.
:)
1). The striped lines begin at 4th Street on the Caperton Trail and continue to the kiosk which is right before where the trail turns into gravel.
2). The stripped lines start at the beginning of Deckers Creek Trail and continue all the way to the intersection with Deckers Creek Rd.
3). In general, the stripes are not properly centered in the trail, this leaves more room on one side of the trail than on the other side. Also, the ends of the stripes are not always perpendicular to one another creating a wavy effect.
4). The stripes are not trail appropriate, but rather are similar to the ones designated for highways. There are approximately 10 feet long and about 4 inches wide. (note: This is a just an estimate.) The MUTCD recommends stripes that are 3 feet long for shared-use paths ([Section 9B.01] or in the newest MUTCD [Section 9C.03]).
5). The stripes are spaced approximately 10 feet apart from each other. The MUTCD recommends a 1-to-3 segment-to-gap ratio. Given the present stripe size that would be 30 feet, however, if the trail was appropriately striped that would be 9 feet.
6). The stripes are white, but both the MUTCD and the AASHTO recommend a "100-mm (4-inch) wide "yellow" center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel (from AASHTO)".
Summary: The biggest problem with the way the stripes were applied is that they are not appropriate stripes for a rail-trail and they are too close together based on their length. No wonder people are complaining about getting dizzy. Also, the intention of these stripes was to provide feedback to people in congested areas to stay to the right, not to make the rail-trail look like a very weird 70 mph freeway. Furthermore, because the stripes weren't properly centered people tend to walk towards the center on the less wide side. AASHTO provides a good explanation of what we wanted to accomplish:
A designer should consider a 100-mm (4-inch) wide yellow center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel. This stripe should be broken where adequate passing sight distance exists, and solid in other locations, or where passing by bicycles should be discouraged. This may be particularly beneficial in the following circumstances: (1) for heavy volumes of bicycles and/or other users, (2) on curves with restricted sight distance, and (3) on unlighted paths where nighttime riding is expected. White edge lines can also be very beneficial where bicycle traffic is expected during early evening hours. Did we accomplish this goal? Based on my real-world experience of riding on the trail today I was appalled. Because of BOPARC's attempt at reinventing the wheel, we have created a situation that actually makes it harder for a bicyclist to adequately identify travelers coming from the opposite direction because of the distraction that the striped lines create; i.e. this is a less safe situation. Furthermore, it was my understanding that these stripes were only going to be placed in congested areas, and augmented by signage.
I am not sure how to finish this message, but I think this indicates some serious problems with the communication channels that exist in this City. You would have thought that BOPARC would have know the appropriate application to use on a rail-trail, and they would have asked or have been told what application to use if they didn't know, but this certainly doesn't seem to be the case. I am looking forward to learning more information about what went wrong from those who know, so we won't have a repeat of this in the future!
-Jonathan
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote: Yes, this was presented to the TC on June 13, 2007. I've attached the file that describes the outcome of this TC meeting, look at (4). I haven't been on the rail trail since the change occurred. Did they put strips in congested areas as we recommended, or did they strip the whole rail trail?
-Jonathan
Greg Good wrote:
Does anyone have a record that the BB recommended to the Traffic Commission a center line on the railtrail? I cannot find any such recommendation in my records, but perhaps I am missing some files.
Background: center lines have appeared and one citizen has been told that this was the call of the BB. I doubt this and I want the record to be clear.
Greg
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Jonathan,
I think we erred when we provided our recommendation to the Traffic Commission for the rail-trail striping and signs. We did not provide them an exact specification. In fact, when they discussed our recommendation they spent significant time discussing the width, length and spacing of the line and as I recall, concluded with specifications very similar to the guidance that you cite. Unfortunately, their meeting minutes captured none of that. Then, subsequently, the recommendation was handed off to BOPARC, probably with no guidance.
Do you think you could draft an exact specification for replacement of the current stripe exact traceability to AASHTO or MUTCD sections? If so, and if the Bicycle Board approved, I would present the specifications to the Traffic Commission. I recognize neither AASHTO nor MUTCD provides exact specifications but unless we provide exact specifications and justify them with reference to standards, this debacle will only worsen. I shudder to think what they might do with the Shared Lane Markings on the roadways!!!
Frank
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote:
On my spying mission today at the Bicycle Parking meeting, I learned from an unnamed source - David ;) - that also BOPARC was upset to discover the striping when they came back from their vacation. Apparently Lyle Mathews from the Signs and Signals Division of Morgantown applied the striping during this time period. This doesn't explain the whole story, but at least we have a better picture of who was involved.
I want to add that unlike what Gunnar is insinuating it's really not just an issue of cyclists being fixated on the stripes (although it's hard not to be if you happen to have peripheral vision), failing to look at scenery, or even a speed issue. (Should we have installed traffic calming speed bumps or narrowed the trail?) Apparently many pedestrians and skaters are not happy with the situation either. As for bicyclists, if you are scanning and looking far ahead as you should be doing, people in the distance are now less visible than they were prior to the change.
-Jonathan
gunn4r Shogren wrote:
Overheard as Betsy and I passed a small family the other day- "stay in your lane Emily so they can pass."
Too bad it is- Not centered. Not just in the congested areas. Strangely wavy, though hardly producing a "dizzying" effect unless you're really fixated on it I suppose.
I don't think that it is- A problem for cyclists identifying folks in the other direction unless they themselves are going too fast on the rail-trail and/or fixated on the stripes (look around, enjoy the scenery...).
Would be interesting to learn how it went from our recommendation to their implementation though.
On 7/8/08, Jonathan Rosenbaum freesource@cheat.org wrote:
I studied the rail-trail changes about 9 hours ago and here are the results of my study.
I see no mention of the total numbers of "stripes". I think we really need that number please.
:)
1). The striped lines begin at 4th Street on the Caperton Trail and continue to the kiosk which is right before where the trail turns into gravel.
2). The stripped lines start at the beginning of Deckers Creek Trail and continue all the way to the intersection with Deckers Creek Rd.
3). In general, the stripes are not properly centered in the trail, this leaves more room on one side of the trail than on the other side. Also, the ends of the stripes are not always perpendicular to one another creating a wavy effect.
4). The stripes are not trail appropriate, but rather are similar to the ones designated for highways. There are approximately 10 feet long and about 4 inches wide. (note: This is a just an estimate.) The MUTCD recommends stripes that are 3 feet long for shared-use paths ([Section 9B.01] or in the newest MUTCD [Section 9C.03]).
5). The stripes are spaced approximately 10 feet apart from each other. The MUTCD recommends a 1-to-3 segment-to-gap ratio. Given the present stripe size that would be 30 feet, however, if the trail was appropriately striped that would be 9 feet.
6). The stripes are white, but both the MUTCD and the AASHTO recommend a "100-mm (4-inch) wide "yellow" center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel (from AASHTO)".
Summary: The biggest problem with the way the stripes were applied is that they are not appropriate stripes for a rail-trail and they are too close together based on their length. No wonder people are complaining about getting dizzy. Also, the intention of these stripes was to provide feedback to people in congested areas to stay to the right, not to make the rail-trail look like a very weird 70 mph freeway. Furthermore, because the stripes weren't properly centered people tend to walk towards the center on the less wide side. AASHTO provides a good explanation of what we wanted to accomplish:
A designer should consider a 100-mm (4-inch) wide yellow center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel. This stripe should be broken where adequate passing sight distance exists, and solid in other locations, or where passing by bicycles should be discouraged. This may be particularly beneficial in the following circumstances: (1) for heavy volumes of bicycles and/or other users, (2) on curves with restricted sight distance, and (3) on unlighted paths where nighttime riding is expected. White edge lines can also be very beneficial where bicycle traffic is expected during early evening hours. Did we accomplish this goal? Based on my real-world experience of riding on the trail today I was appalled. Because of BOPARC's attempt at reinventing the wheel, we have created a situation that actually makes it harder for a bicyclist to adequately identify travelers coming from the opposite direction because of the distraction that the striped lines create; i.e. this is a less safe situation. Furthermore, it was my understanding that these stripes were only going to be placed in congested areas, and augmented by signage.
I am not sure how to finish this message, but I think this indicates some serious problems with the communication channels that exist in this City. You would have thought that BOPARC would have know the appropriate application to use on a rail-trail, and they would have asked or have been told what application to use if they didn't know, but this certainly doesn't seem to be the case. I am looking forward to learning more information about what went wrong from those who know, so we won't have a repeat of this in the future!
-Jonathan
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote: Yes, this was presented to the TC on June 13, 2007. I've attached the file that describes the outcome of this TC meeting, look at (4). I haven't been on the rail trail since the change occurred. Did they put strips in congested areas as we recommended, or did they strip the whole rail trail?
-Jonathan
Greg Good wrote:
Does anyone have a record that the BB recommended to the Traffic Commission a center line on the railtrail? I cannot find any such recommendation in my records, but perhaps I am missing some files.
Background: center lines have appeared and one citizen has been told that this was the call of the BB. I doubt this and I want the record to be clear.
Greg
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
Frank, Jonathan, and all,
Try this source, which I haven't explored extensively tonight: http://www.railtrails.org/whatwedo/trailbuilding/technicalassistance/toolbox...
The Rails-to-Trails Conservancy (the root of the above url) is the national source for standards for railtrails. Like the LAB, they pull things together for an important special interest, even when they may not have the legal standing. So I expect they can send us to the best practices source.
Greg
Frank Gmeindl fgmeindl@verizon.net 7/9/2008 8:13 AM >>>
Jonathan,
I think we erred when we provided our recommendation to the Traffic Commission for the rail-trail striping and signs. We did not provide them an exact specification. In fact, when they discussed our recommendation they spent significant time discussing the width, length and spacing of the line and as I recall, concluded with specifications very similar to the guidance that you cite. Unfortunately, their meeting minutes captured none of that. Then, subsequently, the recommendation was handed off to BOPARC, probably with no guidance.
Do you think you could draft an exact specification for replacement of the current stripe exact traceability to AASHTO or MUTCD sections? If so, and if the Bicycle Board approved, I would present the specifications to the Traffic Commission. I recognize neither AASHTO nor MUTCD provides exact specifications but unless we provide exact specifications and justify them with reference to standards, this debacle will only worsen. I shudder to think what they might do with the Shared Lane Markings on the roadways!!!
Frank
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote:
On my spying mission today at the Bicycle Parking meeting, I learned from an unnamed source - David ;) - that also BOPARC was upset to discover the striping when they came back from their vacation. Apparently Lyle Mathews from the Signs and Signals Division of Morgantown applied the striping during this time period. This doesn't explain the whole story, but at least we have a better picture of who was involved.
I want to add that unlike what Gunnar is insinuating it's really not just an issue of cyclists being fixated on the stripes (although it's hard not to be if you happen to have peripheral vision), failing to look at scenery, or even a speed issue. (Should we have installed traffic calming speed bumps or narrowed the trail?) Apparently many pedestrians and skaters are not happy with the situation either. As for bicyclists, if you are scanning and looking far ahead as you should be doing, people in the distance are now less visible than they were prior to the change.
-Jonathan
gunn4r Shogren wrote:
Overheard as Betsy and I passed a small family the other day- "stay in your lane Emily so they can pass."
Too bad it is- Not centered. Not just in the congested areas. Strangely wavy, though hardly producing a "dizzying" effect unless you're really fixated on it I suppose.
I don't think that it is- A problem for cyclists identifying folks in the other direction unless they themselves are going too fast on the rail-trail and/or fixated on the stripes (look around, enjoy the scenery...).
Would be interesting to learn how it went from our recommendation to their implementation though.
On 7/8/08, Jonathan Rosenbaum freesource@cheat.org wrote:
I studied the rail-trail changes about 9 hours ago and here are the results of my study.
I see no mention of the total numbers of "stripes". I think we really need that number please.
:)
1). The striped lines begin at 4th Street on the Caperton Trail and continue to the kiosk which is right before where the trail turns into gravel.
2). The stripped lines start at the beginning of Deckers Creek Trail and continue all the way to the intersection with Deckers Creek Rd.
3). In general, the stripes are not properly centered in the trail, this leaves more room on one side of the trail than on the other side. Also, the ends of the stripes are not always perpendicular to one another creating a wavy effect.
4). The stripes are not trail appropriate, but rather are similar to the ones designated for highways. There are approximately 10 feet long and about 4 inches wide. (note: This is a just an estimate.) The MUTCD recommends stripes that are 3 feet long for shared-use paths ([Section 9B.01] or in the newest MUTCD [Section 9C.03]).
5). The stripes are spaced approximately 10 feet apart from each other. The MUTCD recommends a 1-to-3 segment-to-gap ratio. Given the present stripe size that would be 30 feet, however, if the trail was appropriately striped that would be 9 feet.
6). The stripes are white, but both the MUTCD and the AASHTO recommend a "100-mm (4-inch) wide "yellow" center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel (from AASHTO)".
Summary: The biggest problem with the way the stripes were applied is that they are not appropriate stripes for a rail-trail and they are too close together based on their length. No wonder people are complaining about getting dizzy. Also, the intention of these stripes was to provide feedback to people in congested areas to stay to the right, not to make the rail-trail look like a very weird 70 mph freeway. Furthermore, because the stripes weren't properly centered people tend to walk towards the center on the less wide side. AASHTO provides a good explanation of what we wanted to accomplish:
A designer should consider a 100-mm (4-inch) wide yellow center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel. This stripe should be broken where adequate passing sight distance exists, and solid in other locations, or where passing by bicycles should be discouraged. This may be particularly beneficial in the following circumstances: (1) for heavy volumes of bicycles and/or other users, (2) on curves with restricted sight distance, and (3) on unlighted paths where nighttime riding is expected. White edge lines can also be very beneficial where bicycle traffic is expected during early evening hours. Did we accomplish this goal? Based on my real-world experience of riding on the trail today I was appalled. Because of BOPARC's attempt at reinventing the wheel, we have created a situation that actually makes it harder for a bicyclist to adequately identify travelers coming from the opposite direction because of the distraction that the striped lines create; i.e. this is a less safe situation. Furthermore, it was my understanding that these stripes were only going to be placed in congested areas, and augmented by signage.
I am not sure how to finish this message, but I think this indicates some serious problems with the communication channels that exist in this City. You would have thought that BOPARC would have know the appropriate application to use on a rail-trail, and they would have asked or have been told what application to use if they didn't know, but this certainly doesn't seem to be the case. I am looking forward to learning more information about what went wrong from those who know, so we won't have a repeat of this in the future!
-Jonathan
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote: Yes, this was presented to the TC on June 13, 2007. I've attached the file that describes the outcome of this TC meeting, look at (4). I haven't been on the rail trail since the change occurred. Did they put strips in congested areas as we recommended, or did they strip the whole rail trail?
-Jonathan
Greg Good wrote:
Does anyone have a record that the BB recommended to the Traffic Commission a center line on the railtrail? I cannot find any such recommendation in my records, but perhaps I am missing some files.
Background: center lines have appeared and one citizen has been told that this was the call of the BB. I doubt this and I want the record to be clear.
Greg
Bikeboard mailing list Bikeboard@cheat.org http://cheat.org/mailman/listinfo/bikeboard
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Greg, I have been looking around the railtrails site for marking standards, and haven't found anything in particular. So I've joined their yahoogroup list, and I am looking at the guidelines other cities have implemented. Interestingly, the page you cite has a photo at the upper right hand corner that shows "The beautiful Monterey Peninsula Recreation Trail" with what appears to be 4" wide 3 foot yellow strips about 9 feet apart.
Frank, I was wondering about that, i.e., the specificity of our recommendation. In the June, 2007 minutes we clearly stated that there should be a small dotted line down the center of the trail, and your June 13th TC meeting write-up shows that it was discussed that the markings should be "appropriate stripes on congested sections". I think we erred in trusting "too much" that best practices would be applied; and based on what you say, indeed, there does appear to be some communication issues. However, one thing is certainly clear, the stripes we now have were applied in an unprofessional, rushed, thoughtless manner.
I'd be glad to write up an exact specification, it shouldn't take too long, but first I will attempt to get feedback from the rails-to-trail conservancy, MTRC (I'll contact Paula Hunt), and Peggy Pings who is WV's NPS Rivers, Trails & Conservation Assistance. I suggest even before the BB considers accepting a specification, it may be prudent to first view a site-specific mock-up.
-Jonathan
Greg Good wrote:
Frank, Jonathan, and all,
Try this source, which I haven't explored extensively tonight: http://www.railtrails.org/whatwedo/trailbuilding/technicalassistance/toolbox...
The Rails-to-Trails Conservancy (the root of the above url) is the national source for standards for railtrails. Like the LAB, they pull things together for an important special interest, even when they may not have the legal standing. So I expect they can send us to the best practices source.
Greg
Frank Gmeindl fgmeindl@verizon.net 7/9/2008 8:13 AM >>>
Jonathan,
I think we erred when we provided our recommendation to the Traffic Commission for the rail-trail striping and signs. We did not provide them an exact specification. In fact, when they discussed our recommendation they spent significant time discussing the width, length and spacing of the line and as I recall, concluded with specifications very similar to the guidance that you cite. Unfortunately, their meeting minutes captured none of that. Then, subsequently, the recommendation was handed off to BOPARC, probably with no guidance.
Do you think you could draft an exact specification for replacement of the current stripe exact traceability to AASHTO or MUTCD sections? If so, and if the Bicycle Board approved, I would present the specifications to the Traffic Commission. I recognize neither AASHTO nor MUTCD provides exact specifications but unless we provide exact specifications and justify them with reference to standards, this debacle will only worsen. I shudder to think what they might do with the Shared Lane Markings on the roadways!!!
Frank
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote:
On my spying mission today at the Bicycle Parking meeting, I learned from an unnamed source - David ;) - that also BOPARC was upset to discover the striping when they came back from their vacation. Apparently Lyle Mathews from the Signs and Signals Division of Morgantown applied the striping during this time period. This doesn't explain the whole story, but at least we have a better picture of who was involved.
I want to add that unlike what Gunnar is insinuating it's really not just an issue of cyclists being fixated on the stripes (although it's hard not to be if you happen to have peripheral vision), failing to look at scenery, or even a speed issue. (Should we have installed traffic calming speed bumps or narrowed the trail?) Apparently many pedestrians and skaters are not happy with the situation either. As for bicyclists, if you are scanning and looking far ahead as you should be doing, people in the distance are now less visible than they were prior to the change.
-Jonathan
gunn4r Shogren wrote:
Overheard as Betsy and I passed a small family the other day- "stay in your lane Emily so they can pass."
Too bad it is- Not centered. Not just in the congested areas. Strangely wavy, though hardly producing a "dizzying" effect unless you're really fixated on it I suppose.
I don't think that it is- A problem for cyclists identifying folks in the other direction unless they themselves are going too fast on the rail-trail and/or fixated on the stripes (look around, enjoy the scenery...).
Would be interesting to learn how it went from our recommendation to their implementation though.
On 7/8/08, Jonathan Rosenbaum freesource@cheat.org wrote:
I studied the rail-trail changes about 9 hours ago and here are the results of my study.
I see no mention of the total numbers of "stripes". I think we really need that number please.
:)
1). The striped lines begin at 4th Street on the Caperton Trail and continue to the kiosk which is right before where the trail turns into gravel.
2). The stripped lines start at the beginning of Deckers Creek Trail and continue all the way to the intersection with Deckers Creek Rd.
3). In general, the stripes are not properly centered in the trail, this leaves more room on one side of the trail than on the other side. Also, the ends of the stripes are not always perpendicular to one another creating a wavy effect.
4). The stripes are not trail appropriate, but rather are similar to the ones designated for highways. There are approximately 10 feet long and about 4 inches wide. (note: This is a just an estimate.) The MUTCD recommends stripes that are 3 feet long for shared-use paths ([Section 9B.01] or in the newest MUTCD [Section 9C.03]).
5). The stripes are spaced approximately 10 feet apart from each other. The MUTCD recommends a 1-to-3 segment-to-gap ratio. Given the present stripe size that would be 30 feet, however, if the trail was appropriately striped that would be 9 feet.
6). The stripes are white, but both the MUTCD and the AASHTO recommend a "100-mm (4-inch) wide "yellow" center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel (from AASHTO)".
Summary: The biggest problem with the way the stripes were applied is that they are not appropriate stripes for a rail-trail and they are too close together based on their length. No wonder people are complaining about getting dizzy. Also, the intention of these stripes was to provide feedback to people in congested areas to stay to the right, not to make the rail-trail look like a very weird 70 mph freeway. Furthermore, because the stripes weren't properly centered people tend to walk towards the center on the less wide side. AASHTO provides a good explanation of what we wanted to accomplish:
A designer should consider a 100-mm (4-inch) wide yellow center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel. This stripe should be broken where adequate passing sight distance exists, and solid in other locations, or where passing by bicycles should be discouraged. This may be particularly beneficial in the following circumstances: (1) for heavy volumes of bicycles and/or other users, (2) on curves with restricted sight distance, and (3) on unlighted paths where nighttime riding is expected. White edge lines can also be very beneficial where bicycle traffic is expected during early evening hours. Did we accomplish this goal? Based on my real-world experience of riding on the trail today I was appalled. Because of BOPARC's attempt at reinventing the wheel, we have created a situation that actually makes it harder for a bicyclist to adequately identify travelers coming from the opposite direction because of the distraction that the striped lines create; i.e. this is a less safe situation. Furthermore, it was my understanding that these stripes were only going to be placed in congested areas, and augmented by signage.
I am not sure how to finish this message, but I think this indicates some serious problems with the communication channels that exist in this City. You would have thought that BOPARC would have know the appropriate application to use on a rail-trail, and they would have asked or have been told what application to use if they didn't know, but this certainly doesn't seem to be the case. I am looking forward to learning more information about what went wrong from those who know, so we won't have a repeat of this in the future!
-Jonathan
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote: Yes, this was presented to the TC on June 13, 2007. I've attached the file that describes the outcome of this TC meeting, look at (4). I haven't been on the rail trail since the change occurred. Did they put strips in congested areas as we recommended, or did they strip the whole rail trail?
-Jonathan
Greg Good wrote:
Does anyone have a record that the BB recommended to the Traffic Commission a center line on the railtrail? I cannot find any such recommendation in my records, but perhaps I am missing some files.
Background: center lines have appeared and one citizen has been told that this was the call of the BB. I doubt this and I want the record to be clear.
Greg
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Here are two shots from the trails in Ottawa, Ontario. We can't appeal to a non-US standard, but it does show what a professional job looks like.
The standard on paved railtrails is 10-foot width, plus 2-foot berms. That should be what we have, which would mean a center line provides 5-foot lanes.
Greg
Jonathan Rosenbaum freesource@cheat.org 7/10/2008 5:32 PM >>>
Greg, I have been looking around the railtrails site for marking standards, and haven't found anything in particular. So I've joined their yahoogroup list, and I am looking at the guidelines other cities have implemented. Interestingly, the page you cite has a photo at the upper right hand corner that shows "The beautiful Monterey Peninsula Recreation Trail" with what appears to be 4" wide 3 foot yellow strips about 9 feet apart.
Frank, I was wondering about that, i.e., the specificity of our recommendation. In the June, 2007 minutes we clearly stated that there should be a small dotted line down the center of the trail, and your June 13th TC meeting write-up shows that it was discussed that the markings should be "appropriate stripes on congested sections". I think we erred in trusting "too much" that best practices would be applied; and based on what you say, indeed, there does appear to be some communication issues. However, one thing is certainly clear, the stripes we now have were applied in an unprofessional, rushed, thoughtless manner.
I'd be glad to write up an exact specification, it shouldn't take too long, but first I will attempt to get feedback from the rails-to-trail conservancy, MTRC (I'll contact Paula Hunt), and Peggy Pings who is WV's NPS Rivers, Trails & Conservation Assistance. I suggest even before the BB considers accepting a specification, it may be prudent to first view a site-specific mock-up.
-Jonathan
Greg Good wrote:
Frank, Jonathan, and all,
Try this source, which I haven't explored extensively tonight: http://www.railtrails.org/whatwedo/trailbuilding/technicalassistance/toolbox...
The Rails-to-Trails Conservancy (the root of the above url) is the national source for standards for railtrails. Like the LAB, they pull things together for an important special interest, even when they may not have the legal standing. So I expect they can send us to the best practices source.
Greg
Frank Gmeindl fgmeindl@verizon.net 7/9/2008 8:13 AM >>>
Jonathan,
I think we erred when we provided our recommendation to the Traffic Commission for the rail-trail striping and signs. We did not provide them an exact specification. In fact, when they discussed our recommendation they spent significant time discussing the width, length and spacing of the line and as I recall, concluded with specifications very similar to the guidance that you cite. Unfortunately, their meeting minutes captured none of that. Then, subsequently, the recommendation was handed off to BOPARC, probably with no guidance.
Do you think you could draft an exact specification for replacement of the current stripe exact traceability to AASHTO or MUTCD sections? If so, and if the Bicycle Board approved, I would present the specifications to the Traffic Commission. I recognize neither AASHTO nor MUTCD provides exact specifications but unless we provide exact specifications and justify them with reference to standards, this debacle will only worsen. I shudder to think what they might do with the Shared Lane Markings on the roadways!!!
Frank
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote:
On my spying mission today at the Bicycle Parking meeting, I learned from an unnamed source - David ;) - that also BOPARC was upset to discover the striping when they came back from their vacation. Apparently Lyle Mathews from the Signs and Signals Division of Morgantown applied the striping during this time period. This doesn't explain the whole story, but at least we have a better picture of who was involved.
I want to add that unlike what Gunnar is insinuating it's really not just an issue of cyclists being fixated on the stripes (although it's hard not to be if you happen to have peripheral vision), failing to look at scenery, or even a speed issue. (Should we have installed traffic calming speed bumps or narrowed the trail?) Apparently many pedestrians and skaters are not happy with the situation either. As for bicyclists, if you are scanning and looking far ahead as you should be doing, people in the distance are now less visible than they were prior to the change.
-Jonathan
gunn4r Shogren wrote:
Overheard as Betsy and I passed a small family the other day- "stay in your lane Emily so they can pass."
Too bad it is- Not centered. Not just in the congested areas. Strangely wavy, though hardly producing a "dizzying" effect unless you're really fixated on it I suppose.
I don't think that it is- A problem for cyclists identifying folks in the other direction unless they themselves are going too fast on the rail-trail and/or fixated on the stripes (look around, enjoy the scenery...).
Would be interesting to learn how it went from our recommendation to their implementation though.
On 7/8/08, Jonathan Rosenbaum freesource@cheat.org wrote:
I studied the rail-trail changes about 9 hours ago and here are the results of my study.
I see no mention of the total numbers of "stripes". I think we really need that number please.
:)
1). The striped lines begin at 4th Street on the Caperton Trail and continue to the kiosk which is right before where the trail turns into gravel.
2). The stripped lines start at the beginning of Deckers Creek Trail and continue all the way to the intersection with Deckers Creek Rd.
3). In general, the stripes are not properly centered in the trail, this leaves more room on one side of the trail than on the other side. Also, the ends of the stripes are not always perpendicular to one another creating a wavy effect.
4). The stripes are not trail appropriate, but rather are similar to the ones designated for highways. There are approximately 10 feet long and about 4 inches wide. (note: This is a just an estimate.) The MUTCD recommends stripes that are 3 feet long for shared-use paths ([Section 9B.01] or in the newest MUTCD [Section 9C.03]).
5). The stripes are spaced approximately 10 feet apart from each other. The MUTCD recommends a 1-to-3 segment-to-gap ratio. Given the present stripe size that would be 30 feet, however, if the trail was appropriately striped that would be 9 feet.
6). The stripes are white, but both the MUTCD and the AASHTO recommend a "100-mm (4-inch) wide "yellow" center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel (from AASHTO)".
Summary: The biggest problem with the way the stripes were applied is that they are not appropriate stripes for a rail-trail and they are too close together based on their length. No wonder people are complaining about getting dizzy. Also, the intention of these stripes was to provide feedback to people in congested areas to stay to the right, not to make the rail-trail look like a very weird 70 mph freeway. Furthermore, because the stripes weren't properly centered people tend to walk towards the center on the less wide side. AASHTO provides a good explanation of what we wanted to accomplish:
A designer should consider a 100-mm (4-inch) wide yellow center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel. This stripe should be broken where adequate passing sight distance exists, and solid in other locations, or where passing by bicycles should be discouraged. This may be particularly beneficial in the following circumstances: (1) for heavy volumes of bicycles and/or other users, (2) on curves with restricted sight distance, and (3) on unlighted paths where nighttime riding is expected. White edge lines can also be very beneficial where bicycle traffic is expected during early evening hours. Did we accomplish this goal? Based on my real-world experience of riding on the trail today I was appalled. Because of BOPARC's attempt at reinventing the wheel, we have created a situation that actually makes it harder for a bicyclist to adequately identify travelers coming from the opposite direction because of the distraction that the striped lines create; i.e. this is a less safe situation. Furthermore, it was my understanding that these stripes were only going to be placed in congested areas, and augmented by signage.
I am not sure how to finish this message, but I think this indicates some serious problems with the communication channels that exist in this City. You would have thought that BOPARC would have know the appropriate application to use on a rail-trail, and they would have asked or have been told what application to use if they didn't know, but this certainly doesn't seem to be the case. I am looking forward to learning more information about what went wrong from those who know, so we won't have a repeat of this in the future!
-Jonathan
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote: Yes, this was presented to the TC on June 13, 2007. I've attached the file that describes the outcome of this TC meeting, look at (4). I haven't been on the rail trail since the change occurred. Did they put strips in congested areas as we recommended, or did they strip the whole rail trail?
-Jonathan
Greg Good wrote:
Does anyone have a record that the BB recommended to the Traffic Commission a center line on the railtrail? I cannot find any such recommendation in my records, but perhaps I am missing some files.
Background: center lines have appeared and one citizen has been told that this was the call of the BB. I doubt this and I want the record to be clear.
Greg
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Ron, I've cc'd you a few times. But I don't know if you have seen this email. This is NOT a trivial problem. This has transformed a major plus for Morgantown into an absolute laughing stock or worse. Our railtrail is no longer a Cadillac. It is now a Yugo. It must be fixed.
Greg
Jonathan Rosenbaum freesource@cheat.org 7/8/2008 3:23 AM >>>
I studied the rail-trail changes about 9 hours ago and here are the results of my study.
1). The striped lines begin at 4th Street on the Caperton Trail and continue to the kiosk which is right before where the trail turns into gravel.
2). The stripped lines start at the beginning of Deckers Creek Trail and continue all the way to the intersection with Deckers Creek Rd.
3). In general, the stripes are not properly centered in the trail, this leaves more room on one side of the trail than on the other side. Also, the ends of the stripes are not always perpendicular to one another creating a wavy effect.
4). The stripes are not trail appropriate, but rather are similar to the ones designated for highways. There are approximately 10 feet long and about 4 inches wide. (note: This is a just an estimate.) The MUTCD recommends stripes that are 3 feet long for shared-use paths ([Section 9B.01] or in the newest MUTCD [Section 9C.03]).
5). The stripes are spaced approximately 10 feet apart from each other. The MUTCD recommends a 1-to-3 segment-to-gap ratio. Given the present stripe size that would be 30 feet, however, if the trail was appropriately striped that would be 9 feet.
6). The stripes are white, but both the MUTCD and the AASHTO recommend a "100-mm (4-inch) wide "yellow" center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel (from AASHTO)".
Summary: The biggest problem with the way the stripes were applied is that they are not appropriate stripes for a rail-trail and they are too close together based on their length. No wonder people are complaining about getting dizzy. Also, the intention of these stripes was to provide feedback to people in congested areas to stay to the right, not to make the rail-trail look like a very weird 70 mph freeway. Furthermore, because the stripes weren't properly centered people tend to walk towards the center on the less wide side. AASHTO provides a good explanation of what we wanted to accomplish:
A designer should consider a 100-mm (4-inch) wide yellow center line stripe to separate opposite directions of travel. This stripe should be broken where adequate passing sight distance exists, and solid in other locations, or where passing by bicycles should be discouraged. This may be particularly beneficial in the following circumstances: (1) for heavy volumes of bicycles and/or other users, (2) on curves with restricted sight distance, and (3) on unlighted paths where nighttime riding is expected. White edge lines can also be very beneficial where bicycle traffic is expected during early evening hours.
Did we accomplish this goal? Based on my real-world experience of riding on the trail today I was appalled. Because of BOPARC's attempt at reinventing the wheel, we have created a situation that actually makes it harder for a bicyclist to adequately identify travelers coming from the opposite direction because of the distraction that the striped lines create; i.e. this is a less safe situation. Furthermore, it was my understanding that these stripes were only going to be placed in congested areas, and augmented by signage.
I am not sure how to finish this message, but I think this indicates some serious problems with the communication channels that exist in this City. You would have thought that BOPARC would have know the appropriate application to use on a rail-trail, and they would have asked or have been told what application to use if they didn't know, but this certainly doesn't seem to be the case. I am looking forward to learning more information about what went wrong from those who know, so we won't have a repeat of this in the future!
-Jonathan
Jonathan Rosenbaum wrote:
Yes, this was presented to the TC on June 13, 2007. I've attached the file that describes the outcome of this TC meeting, look at (4). I haven't been on the rail trail since the change occurred. Did they put strips in congested areas as we recommended, or did they strip the whole rail trail?
-Jonathan
Greg Good wrote:
Does anyone have a record that the BB recommended to the Traffic Commission a center line on the railtrail? I cannot find any such recommendation in my records, but perhaps I am missing some files.
Background: center lines have appeared and one citizen has been told that this was the call of the BB. I doubt this and I want the record to be clear.
Greg
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-
Frank Gmeindl -
Greg Good -
gunn4r Shogren -
Jonathan Rosenbaum