Bah.
How far over off-center would they really need to go to make a 15' wide lane?
"It will encourage motorists to drive faster"? That sounds like bunk. Motorists are gonna fly up that bridge regardless. 1) Cause E for enforcement is pretty nonexistent and 2) Because it's a wide open bridge man! And then they will come careening into the turn. I do wonder how and if they are going to widen 857 up from the bridge. I will say that making a climbing lane on the bridge and then having no consideration for further cycling use past the bridge is kind of sad but understandable given the "engineers" lack of caring or even adhering to the almighty AASHTO guide lines. Bah.
That shoulder is gonna be crap filled, you can count on that.
Sure signs going up would be nice to ask for. Who wants to take the bet that they get placed there?
It would have been real nice and peachy if they used the freakin' wide bridge as an excuse to start widening the rest of the narrow road. Get going w/ that positive momentum and such.
Sorry I don't have any positive recs, just Friday bitchin'.
gunny-grumper.
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Frank Gmeindl fgmeindl@gmail.com wrote:
Bicycle Board Members,
Please give me your thoughts on this by Monday. DOH is probably ready to stripe the bridge so I'd like to respond no later than Monday.
Basically, they're not going to do anything different than they originally planned. Except perhaps that they've decided on 11-foot travel lanes with 4-foot shoulders whereas what Bryan said a first was 11-12 foot travel lanes and 3-4 foot shoulders.
Since 4-feet is narrower than the AASHTO recommended minimum for a bike lane and since an 11-foot travel lane is not wide enough for a bicycle and motor vehicle to travel safely side-by-side, I'm inclined to ask them to install R4-11 (Bicycles May Use Full Lane) signs as recommended in the 2009 MUTCD on the bridge and along the roadway all the way to the traffic light at I-68.
I'm sure they expect bicyclists to ride on the shoulder and I expect most of you think that's fine. If so, I will simply respond to Bryan with thanks for consideration.
Frank
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Radabaugh, Bryan L" Bryan.L.Radabaugh@wv.gov Date: October 12, 2012 11:43:53 AM EDT To: Frank Gmeindl fgmeindl@gmail.com Cc: Bill Austin baustin@labyrinth.net, "Keller, Perry J" Perry.J.Keller@wv.gov, "Nelson, Jason W" Jason.W.Nelson@wv.gov, "Harris, Stephen R" Stephen.R.Harris@wv.gov, "Shoukry, Fouad N" Fouad.N.Shoukry@wv.gov Subject: RE: New Ice's Ferry Bridge
Frank, After further reviewing this situation, we have determined we can stripe the structure for 2-11’ lanes and 2 -4’ shoulders. We are concerned that if we try to shift the centerline to one side or the other of the structure that it will create a few issues with tying in on each end and having the motorists driving on the crown between the two lanes. We are also concerned that if we stripe this for one wide lane going uphill that it will encourage motorists to drive faster and we will not be able to delineate them to the edge of their travel lane. If you would like to discuss further, please email me or call.
Thanks,
Bryan Radabaugh
From: Frank Gmeindl [mailto:fgmeindl@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 3:25 PM To: Radabaugh, Bryan L Cc: Bill Austin; Keller, Perry J; Nelson, Jason W; Harris, Stephen R Subject: Re: New Ice's Ferry Bridge
Bryan,
Thanks for responding and for considering my requests.
I would feel more comfortable if the climbing lane were 15-feet wide and the other dimensions adjusted accordingly. I could also be comfortable with an 10-12 foot uphill travel lane and a minimum 5-foot shoulder if the shoulder were always sound and free of debris, snow and ice. However, if the travel lane were 15-feet, extraordinary measures to keep the shoulder clean would not be necessary. Also, the transition from the bridge would be less abrupt for the cyclist than if he or she were segregated onto the shoulder on the bridge and then confronted with the narrow lane and no shoulder up the hill from the bridge.
If you're thinking that cyclists would ride on the shoulder with the currently planned configuration, you're probably correct. Travel lanes that are too narrow for bicycles and motor vehicles to safely travel side-by-side within the lane give cyclists 3 choices: 1) to control the lane, i.e. ride far enough out in the lane to discourage overtaking motorists from passing until the oncoming lane is clear; 2) to ride as near as possible to the right edge of the travel lane and risk motorists passing them too closely, especially when there is traffic in the on-coming lane; 3) to ride on the shoulder if there is one.
Choice 1 is actually the safest choice in a narrow lane but most cyclists won't take it because they don't want to hold up traffic and they fear getting hit from behind. Choice 2 is probably the least safe but frequently chosen by cyclists when there is no shoulder or when the shoulder is deteriorated or contains debris that could cause loss of control. (In my personal experience riding more than 150,000 miles, lanes wider than 10-feet but less than 15-feet are particularly dangerous because cyclists are reluctant to move far enough away from the right edge to control the lane and motorists are more likely to pass too closely because there is enough room to get by but not enough to pass safely.) Choice 3 would probably be chosen by cyclists and be reasonably safe If the shoulder is wide enough and continuously maintained sound and free of debris, snow and ice.
AASHTO says that lane width of at least 15-foot is required for a bicycle and motor vehicle to travel safely side-by-side within the lane. AASHTO also recommends 5-feet as minimum bike lane width.
It is my understanding that the only 2 cyclists that have been killed by a motor vehicle in WV were riding on the shoulder.
I understand that the bridge will have a sidewalk on one side. Adding a bicycle climbing lane by simply adjusting the striping could create a Complete Street at practically no additional cost.
Frank
On Sep 12, 2012, at 3:41 PM, Radabaugh, Bryan L wrote:
Frank, I apologize for the delay in responding. I did not go back and discuss the design particulars with the individual who managed this project, but Jason Nelson and I reviewed the plans and it appears we will have two 11 to 12’ lanes and 3 to 4’ shoulders in both directions on the structure. Do you feel comfortable this configuration would address your concern across the bridge? I do not believe we already have a name established for this structure, I would recommend prepare a letter of request to have the bridge named to the gentleman’s name as well as the background information and send the request to your local legislative members. These name changes must pass through legislature to be made effective.
Jason/Randy, If I have misspoke about any of this, please copy everyone and address.
Thanks,
Bryan Radabaugh WVDOT - Division of Highways District 4 Design Engineer 304-842-1579 (O) 304-669-0599 (C)
From: Frank Gmeindl [mailto:fgmeindl@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:47 PM To: Bill Austin Cc: Radabaugh, Bryan L; Keller, Perry J Subject: Fwd: New Ice's Ferry Bridge
Hi Bill,
Below is the message that I mentioned to you that I sent to Bryan Radabaugh asking for a bike lane or wide travel lane on the uphill side of the new Ice's Ferry Bridge. This could be accomplished by moving the center line.
This request is especially appropriate since that bridge is part of WVDOT's prospective West Virginia Bicycle Route 7 (see Table 2.1.7 in the attached "Establishing West Virginia Bicycle Transportation Routes" sent to me by Perry Keller).
What will the bridge be named? Cheat Lake Bridge or Ice's Ferry Bridge seem most appropriate. However, there seems to be a recent trend to name bridges after people for example Edit B. Barrill Bridge = Star City Bridge.
If the new bridge is going to get a new name, how do we go about getting it named the Edward Kean Bird Bridge? Kean died last year at the age of 52 of pancreatic cancer. He was one of the strongest and most loved cyclists in our community and frequently rode on both sides of the lake. He held the record for the fastest climb up Mud Pike. As head of social services at Ruby Memorial Hospital, he was also loved by the non-cycling community. The day after his funeral in Morgantown last September, we rode to the top of Mud Pike to conduct a service and to install a memorial. (Photo: 299976_10150296383661029_764441598_n.jpg ) We would have ridden across the Ice's Ferry Bridge to get there but WVDOH refused us permission. We rode through Pt. Marion adding 20-miles to our planned route; making it a 75-mile ride that probably discouraged some from attending. We plan to have an annual ride up to Kean's memorial at the top of Mud Pike. I know cyclists won't be able to cross Cheat Lake this September but it would be nice if in future years, we could ride safely over the Edward Kean Bird memorial bridge to get there and back.
Frank
Begin forwarded message:
From: Frank Gmeindl frank.gmeindl@comcast.net Date: July 20, 2012 3:38:54 PM EDT To: Bryan L Radabaugh Bryan.L.Radabaugh@wv.gov Subject: New Ice's Ferry Bridge
Hi Bryan,
I hope all the work you have going this summer is progressing smoothly. I rode out by the new Ice's Ferry Bridge Tuesday. It's beautiful. With so many men working on it, I expect it will be done soon.
Has any consideration been given to the fact that bicyclists heading west (uphill) on the bridge will probably be moving slower than motor traffic? A bike lane in that direction or at least a wide lane that could make passing safer would be appreciated. I don't know what the speed limit will be on the bridge but I would expect eastbound cyclists could probably keep up with motor traffic and not need a bike lane or wide lane on the descending side.
Frank D. Gmeindl 491 WilsonAvenue Morgantown, WV 26501 304-376-0446 Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles
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