Re: [EC] [fom] WVU studies ex-mine sites as biofuel farms; Research in early stages to find if abandoned, reclaimed land can be used
Making dollars is the only way America knows to care - a pity.
We need to remember that life does take energy...
Jim Sconyers jim_scon@yahoo.com 603.969.6712
Remember: Mother Nature bats last.
________________________________ From: Michael Price greyhawkwv@verizon.net To: regina1936@verizon.net Cc: wvhollowgirl@gmail.com; ec@osenergy.org Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 7:27:19 PM Subject: Re: [EC] [fom] WVU studies ex-mine sites as biofuel farms; Research in early stages to find if abandoned, reclaimed land can be used
Sounds to me like a pipe dream. Same as the clean coal technology. This is a wasteland and will not support a crop like this. Let alone being able to harvest it. I guess if someone can find a way to make a dollar at it, then it will "work". Until people realize they are destroying our planet and really care about it more than a dollar then all is lost.
mike price
Nov 29, 2008 11:19:27 AM, regina1936@verizon.net wrote:
Maria, very good rant and from someone who knows firsthand. I'm putting this on the SC Energy Committee list serve. There are some good points in your rant that we should all be aware of. Regina
Maria Gunnoe wrote:
Wow now we get switch grass on the river banks.
Everything they experiment with on these mine sites end up growing along the creeks.......
I know because we never had Chinese knot weed until they started wrecklaiming. Now its taking over. What makes anyone think they can get anything including GRASS to grow long enough to "farm" on subsiding land. This land is simply ALWAYS moving into the valley streams and settling and it will be for 1000's of years to come. BTW this is not LAND. Its a friggan pile of rocks with dirt and lots of silica dust scattered . The co's have deposited everything they needed to dispose of in this pile of rocks. They have got everyone convinced that this is LAND. Its nots its former land turned upside down, drizzeled with deisel fuel, gasoline old motor oil, old hydraulic fluid, old tires, rotting half burnt trees, rusting peices of equipment, in some cases our former cemeteries, and its all covered up by a nice blanket of green so we have let them convince us that we have something here. IT's waters and soil are toxic. This is not land. Its a toxic waste dump. call it what it is!
Yes we need them to fix this as best as possible but I still say they need to put native trees and plants on these sites and solar farms. Switch grass could be doable but do we really want this growing along our streams too? _This is what will happen!!! _
Pond Fork is getting choaked out by Chinese Knot weed and Autum Olive. These are not native and they are invasive.
Its just my thoughts but I think we need to refer to this for what it is. Wrecklaimed mine sites are dead. Never in a 100 lifetimes will we see what was once there. (productive soil clean water and quality land.) Its kind of the same concept as "clean coal" they are thinking lets see if we can do this...... Meantime all their mad experiments end up in the valley's streams. I would like to see them get the native plant life _in the streams_ growing again. This would impress me. My point is they will never reclaim dead land. I know they have to try but they need to keep their invasive experiments on their property and stop smouthering my REAL land with it. Because it doesn't take hold on the pile of rocks in the valley behind me. It simply washes down the stream to my place and takes hold where there is actually more stable land to grow on.
The entire concept of reclaimed land is as a big lie as clean coal.
If they stop doing it then they don't have to worry about how they are going to get anything to grow there. I think they are destorying farmed lands with MTR. I know my family before me growed corn on the mtn tops because it grew much bigger. They called them mountain feilds. Just my rant...
Maria Gunnoe OVEC Community Outreach and Issue Organizer "Stand Beside or Step Aside" www.ohvec.org www.ilovemountains.org www.southwings.org www.patchworkfilms.com www.ran.org www.burningthefuture.com
HELP THE KIDS HAVE A SAFE SCHOOL IN SUNDIAL, WV @ www.penniesofpromise.org
DO SOMETHING NOW TO STOP THE MADNESS OF MTR!! WRITE YOUR REP'S ASK THEM TO CO-SPONSER THE CLEAN WATER PROTECTION ACT HR 2169. WE ARE AS CLOSE AS WE HAVE EVER BEEN TO STOPPING MTR AND WE NEED YOUR HELP! CHECK TO SEE IF YOUR REP HAS SIGNED ON AS A CO SPONSER @ www.thomas.gov # HR 2169 WRITE LETTERS TO THE EDITOR OF YOUR LOCAL PAPER! CONSERVE ENERGY! VOTE! GET SIGNED UP FOR OVEC ACTION ALERTS AND BECOME AN OVEC MEMEBER @ www.ohvec.org
On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 5:37 AM, Vivian Stockman
wrote:
November 29, 2008 WVU studies ex-mine sites as biofuel farms Research in early stages to find if abandoned, reclaimed land can be used http://www.wvgazette.com/News/200811280586
By The Associated Press
MORGANTOWN, W.Va. -- For now, they amount to little more than snow-dusted stubble on 30 otherwise barren acres, but in Jeff Skousen's mind, the switchgrass seeds planted on three former strip mines will someday be 3- to 10-foot-tall fields, swaying in the breeze and ready to be turned into fuel.
If all the pieces fall into place - a big 'if,' he admits - the vision will be repeated on thousands of acres across West Virginia, with abandoned and reclaimed coal mine sites finding new life as farmland.
Switchgrass and its energy-producing potential are hot topics among researchers nationwide. At Oklahoma State University, for example, the federal government is investing $20 million in research on how best to convert it and other grasses into biofuel.
Skousen, a soil science professor at West Virginia University, has a more narrow focus: Can the slow-starting switchgrass take hold on mine sites that often are stripped of topsoil, eroded and acidic, or loaded with rocks?
"We have thousands or tens of thousands of acres that are just sitting there,'' he says. "In general, the principles are sound. It's just a matter of whether we can make it happen. Will the coal companies adopt it, and will we be able to find the people to harvest it and make it their livelihood?''
Switchgrass fields could even create jobs for residents who could help compact the plant material, turn it into pellets or build refineries.
That's getting ahead of himself, though, he says: "We first have to demonstrate we can do it.''
Using a $40,000 grant from the governor's office, WVU and the state Department of Environmental Protection targeted three reclaimed, 10-acre sites for planting in May: the former Magnum Coal Co. Hobet 21 mine near Madison in Boone County; a former Coal-Mac Inc. mine near Holden in Logan County; and a former mine site now owned by the Upper Potomac River Commission near Piedmont in Mineral County.
Surface mines can range from 1,000 to 12,000 acres and often have roads, water, utilities and even possible sites for ethanol processing, says the DEP's Ken Ellison, director of the Division of Land Restoration.
To know if they're feasible farmlands, though, the state needs research.
WVU's Water Research Institute will manage the project. Skousen, Travis Keene and their fellow scientists will monitor growth for three years, then harvest and assess switchgrass' fuel-making potential.
At each site, they expect to learn something different. The Piedmont site, where sewage and paper-mill sludge were dumped for years, promises the best fertility, Skousen says, but it also has weeds that can choke out the switchgrass.
Abandoned mine lands might be acidic, eroded and barren, so switchgrass could help reclaim them. Their soils, however, might not be fertile and might require much more preparation. Reclaimed-mine lands might require less preparation work because coal operators have restored the topsoil.
Regardless of whether a site is abandoned or reclaimed, though, there is another problem. An abundance of rocks could make harvesting impossible, or at least expensive.
The challenges don't end there.
While studies have shown the net energy yield of switchgrass ethanol is about six times better than corn ethanol, there is no consensus on how best to covert it into sugars for fuel. Nor are there commercial-scale refineries or a distribution network for the fuel once it's made.
Because switchgrass has a much lower energy potential than coal, Skousen says, it won't be economically feasible to ship it far. That means refineries will have to be close to the fields.
"We're a little concerned,'' he says, "but that's a problem everywhere.''
Still, he adds, this is a possibility worth exploring.
_______________________________________________ EC mailing list EC@osenergy.org http://osenergy.org/mailman/listinfo/ec
Regardless of whether it is from minelands or from other suitable pasture/grassland, biofuels are a serious effort, and one we should support where it is environmentally appropriate. In most cases, ti will be the surface owner, not the owner of mineral rights, who will work the land once it is mined. While that is often the coal company, in other cases it is a local farmer or community member. The advantage of switch grass is that it is a perennial, and can be productive with far lower fertilizer inputs than annual crops such as corn or soybean. For those who do math, annual production is in the range of 5-8 tons per acre per year, which is pretty small compare to the 1600 tons per acre-foot of coal. Thus, it would take 600+years to produce the same amount of carbon as mining a 3-foot thick seam of coal. So one could realistically argue that this is a minuscule effort to substitute for coal. But the advantage of switchgrass is that after 600 years of production, you still have the land. Once the coal is gone, it is gone. And with switchgrass, you are taking the carbon out of the atmosphere, rather than releasing fossil carbon to the atmosphere. There may even be a little net sequestration as the switchgrass produces soil organic matter which ties up carbon.
I realize that this is currently mostly a PR effort for the Friends of Coal, but once we get a Renewable Portfolio Standard, or if a carbon tax is imposed, I think we are going to see some serious investment in biofuels. There is some merit in getting coal companies to think about long term sustainablity of production of renewable resources, rather than focusing solely on depletion of a non-renewable resource. No one wants to get put out of business, least of all coal companies. If they think they get defensive because they are always under attack, providing ways to switch to renewable alternatives gives them something positive to think about. I see a lot of potential for this project, and would urge cautious encouragement of projects like this.
Or else I am still just looking for the pony.
JBK
Michael Price greyhawkwv@verizon.net 11/29/2008 7:27 PM >>>
Sounds to me like a pipe dream. Same as the clean coal technology. This is a wasteland and will not support a crop like this. Let alone being able to harvest it. I guess if someone can find a way to make a dollar at it, then it will "work". Until people realize they are destroying our planet and really care about it more than a dollar then all is lost.
mike price
Nov 29, 2008 11:19:27 AM, regina1936@verizon.net wrote:
Maria, very good rant and from someone who knows firsthand. I'm putting this on the SC Energy Committee list serve. There are some good points in your rant that we should all be aware of. Regina
Maria Gunnoe wrote:
Wow now we get switch grass on the river banks.
Everything they experiment with on these mine sites end up growing along the creeks.......
I know because we never had Chinese knot weed until they started wrecklaiming. Now its taking over. What makes anyone think they can get anything including GRASS to grow long enough to "farm" on subsiding land. This land is simply ALWAYS moving into the valley streams and settling and it will be for 1000's of years to come. BTW this is not LAND. Its a friggan pile of rocks with dirt and lots of silica dust scattered . The co's have deposited everything they needed to dispose of in this pile of rocks. They have got everyone convinced that this is LAND. Its nots its former land turned upside down, drizzeled with deisel fuel, gasoline old motor oil, old hydraulic fluid, old tires, rotting half burnt trees, rusting peices of equipment, in some cases our former cemeteries, and its all covered up by a nice blanket of green so we have let them convince us that we have something here. IT's waters and soil are toxic. This is not land. Its a toxic waste dump. call it what it is!
Yes we need them to fix this as best as possible but I still say they need to put native trees and plants on these sites and solar farms. Switch grass could be doable but do we really want this growing along our streams too? _This is what will happen!!! _
Pond Fork is getting choaked out by Chinese Knot weed and Autum Olive. These are not native and they are invasive.
Its just my thoughts but I think we need to refer to this for what it is. Wrecklaimed mine sites are dead. Never in a 100 lifetimes will we see what was once there. (productive soil clean water and quality land.) Its kind of the same concept as "clean coal" they are thinking lets see if we can do this...... Meantime all their mad experiments end up in the valley's streams. I would like to see them get the native plant life _in the streams_ growing again. This would impress me. My point is they will never reclaim dead land. I know they have to try but they need to keep their invasive experiments on their property and stop smouthering my REAL land with it. Because it doesn't take hold on the pile of rocks in the valley behind me. It simply washes down the stream to my place and takes hold where there is actually more stable land to grow on.
The entire concept of reclaimed land is as a big lie as clean coal.
If they stop doing it then they don't have to worry about how they are going to get anything to grow there. I think they are destorying farmed lands with MTR. I know my family before me growed corn on the mtn tops because it grew much bigger. They called them mountain feilds. Just my rant...
Maria Gunnoe OVEC Community Outreach and Issue Organizer "Stand Beside or Step Aside" www.ohvec.org www.ilovemountains.org www.southwings.org www.patchworkfilms.com www.ran.org www.burningthefuture.com
HELP THE KIDS HAVE A SAFE SCHOOL IN SUNDIAL, WV @ www.penniesofpromise.org
DO SOMETHING NOW TO STOP THE MADNESS OF MTR!! WRITE YOUR REP'S ASK THEM TO CO-SPONSER THE CLEAN WATER PROTECTION ACT HR 2169. WE ARE AS CLOSE AS WE HAVE EVER BEEN TO STOPPING MTR AND WE NEED YOUR HELP! CHECK TO SEE IF YOUR REP HAS SIGNED ON AS A CO SPONSER @ www.thomas.gov # HR 2169 WRITE LETTERS TO THE EDITOR OF YOUR LOCAL PAPER! CONSERVE ENERGY! VOTE! GET SIGNED UP FOR OVEC ACTION ALERTS AND BECOME AN OVEC MEMEBER @ www.ohvec.org
On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 5:37 AM, Vivian Stockman
wrote:
November 29, 2008 WVU studies ex-mine sites as biofuel farms Research in early stages to find if abandoned, reclaimed land can be used http://www.wvgazette.com/News/200811280586
By The Associated Press
MORGANTOWN, W.Va. -- For now, they amount to little more than snow-dusted stubble on 30 otherwise barren acres, but in Jeff Skousen's mind, the switchgrass seeds planted on three former strip mines will someday be 3- to 10-foot-tall fields, swaying in the breeze and ready to be turned into fuel.
If all the pieces fall into place - a big 'if,' he admits - the vision will be repeated on thousands of acres across West Virginia, with abandoned and reclaimed coal mine sites finding new life as farmland.
Switchgrass and its energy-producing potential are hot topics among researchers nationwide. At Oklahoma State University, for example, the federal government is investing $20 million in research on how best to convert it and other grasses into biofuel.
Skousen, a soil science professor at West Virginia University, has a more narrow focus: Can the slow-starting switchgrass take hold on mine sites that often are stripped of topsoil, eroded and acidic, or loaded with rocks?
"We have thousands or tens of thousands of acres that are just sitting there,'' he says. "In general, the principles are sound. It's just a matter of whether we can make it happen. Will the coal companies adopt it, and will we be able to find the people to harvest it and make it their livelihood?''
Switchgrass fields could even create jobs for residents who could help compact the plant material, turn it into pellets or build refineries.
That's getting ahead of himself, though, he says: "We first have to demonstrate we can do it.''
Using a $40,000 grant from the governor's office, WVU and the state Department of Environmental Protection targeted three reclaimed, 10-acre sites for planting in May: the former Magnum Coal Co. Hobet 21 mine near Madison in Boone County; a former Coal-Mac Inc. mine near Holden in Logan County; and a former mine site now owned by the Upper Potomac River Commission near Piedmont in Mineral County.
Surface mines can range from 1,000 to 12,000 acres and often have roads, water, utilities and even possible sites for ethanol processing, says the DEP's Ken Ellison, director of the Division of Land Restoration.
To know if they're feasible farmlands, though, the state needs research.
WVU's Water Research Institute will manage the project. Skousen, Travis Keene and their fellow scientists will monitor growth for three years, then harvest and assess switchgrass' fuel-making potential.
At each site, they expect to learn something different. The Piedmont site, where sewage and paper-mill sludge were dumped for years, promises the best fertility, Skousen says, but it also has weeds that can choke out the switchgrass.
Abandoned mine lands might be acidic, eroded and barren, so switchgrass could help reclaim them. Their soils, however, might not be fertile and might require much more preparation. Reclaimed-mine lands might require less preparation work because coal operators have restored the topsoil.
Regardless of whether a site is abandoned or reclaimed, though, there is another problem. An abundance of rocks could make harvesting impossible, or at least expensive.
The challenges don't end there.
While studies have shown the net energy yield of switchgrass ethanol is about six times better than corn ethanol, there is no consensus on how best to covert it into sugars for fuel. Nor are there commercial-scale refineries or a distribution network for the fuel once it's made.
Because switchgrass has a much lower energy potential than coal, Skousen says, it won't be economically feasible to ship it far. That means refineries will have to be close to the fields.
"We're a little concerned,'' he says, "but that's a problem everywhere.''
Still, he adds, this is a possibility worth exploring.
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