I think it’s hard to quantify how much time you save.  I’m a very observant person, and I didn’t learn a good portion of the material in 5 years of riding/racing/officiating/reading.

I think an effective cost measure might be to consider what happens if you have an accident that could have been prevented.  How much time and money will you spend in the hospital?

From: bikeboard-bounces@cheat.org [mailto:bikeboard-bounces@cheat.org] On Behalf Of Frank Gmeindl
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 4:12 PM
To: Aira Loren Burkhart
Cc: Bicycle Board; Elizabeth Shogren; chip wamsley; Jim Rye
Subject: Re: [Bikeboard] Course participation

On Feb 9, 2011, at 3:20 PM, Aira Loren Burkhart wrote:

Did the MonBike Clubbers think $60 was too much because they think they don't need the class? How many of them came to the when it was almost/actually free? Was the low low price persuasive at all?

I don't remember who all I asked.  I do know that of the 3 that said $60 was too much, 2 took it at $45 but 1 never took it.  

As for my lack of attendance, there has been a disconnect between the value I put on the weekends versus the perceived value of the giving up one of those weekends to take the course. My thinking was "well, I'm getting to work and around town just fine and when things break, either john will fix it or the bike store guys or I'll read the manual....when it actually breaks, whenever that will be. So, I'll just keep scraping the paint off my house every night and weekend." I don't have boredom/down time, so the class needed to seem valuable enough to command priority among my many interests. Instead, it seemed like something that would "be there when I got around to it" which I never did.

So, can ya'll list the all the skills gained and we'll try to put a number to how many hours you'll save by taking the class?

After riding many more than 100,000 miles with fear of motor vehicles, the Traffic Skills 101 (then called Road I) eliminated my fear.  The whole course did it but if I had to identify specific knowledge or skills they would be:

1. Understanding that visibility and predictability maximize my safety.

2. I have the same rights to the road as motorists and I have the same duties.

3. I am most visible and predictable when I drive my bicycle as a vehicle.

4. I get more respect and have fewer unpleasant encounters when I take the appropriate lateral position in the travel lane.

5. Many, many fine points such as the signal that my cadence and body position sends when I'm approaching an intersection, etc., etc.

I like the idea of the number of hours you'll save by taking the course.  In his book, Effective Cycling, John Forester says (table 28.7, p. 271) that Effective Cycling training (which is 36 hours, not our 9 hour TS101 course), requires 1/4 year of training plus 800 miles of riding to gain the knowledge and skills that one would gain from self-teaching with 50,000 miles of riding over 10-20 years, or from reading books and riding 2,500 miles over 1 year.  The complete Effective Cycling course includes everything in both TS101 and TS201 and then some.  As I said above, I rode more than 100,000 miles over more than 50 years and read a lot of cycling magazines and books and didn't lose the fear until I took the weekend TS101 but I'm a slow learner and I wouldn't say that you'd save 50 years but I don't think saying 10 would be unreasonable.

aira 

On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Gunnar Shogren <gshogren@gmail.com> wrote:

Fact is-
How many of those folks from the Mon Bike Club ride that said 60$ was
too much came for a class?
Skiing is (I would say) a *completely* different demographic compared
to the "learn to bike properly" crowd.  Might not be different from
say "learn how to train for your first century" or "get fit for your
first Tri" crowd or something like that, but I just don't think it's
viewed as the same from the "people".  Sure we all know that it's
really important and really helpful, but unless we get that word
across to folks, it just doesn't appear to be.
How many of this list *have* taken the course?  100%?  And why not?
Too much $$, not enough worth, too much time, you already know it all?
 Well maybe that's the same for the population too.

Wish I had answers.
I think 60$ is max for around here, but there *has* to be a real
perceived value.  We gotta work on that.

My .02$

On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 2:48 PM, Frank Gmeindl <fgmeindl@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Feb 9, 2011, at 2:25 PM, Aira Loren Burkhart wrote:
>
> Well, who do we want to attend the class, or who do we think might possibly
> be persuaded to bicycle who isn't already?
>
>
> Good question.  My first response is:  everybody.  If I had to segment and
> prioritize, my first rough target would be those that would make the biggest
> switch to riding their bikes from driving their cars.  Now, who would they
> be?  I'll just throw out a couple of guesses: people who:
> * have experienced the joy and freedom of cycling but find some impediments
> to riding now
> * can tolerate getting somewhere a few minutes later than driving or being
> driven
> * are in fair or better physical condition
> * want to drive their cars less
>
> that's the heart of the marketing problem.
>
> who's our target?
> students? (what kind?)
> people who live within 2 miles of school or work?
> the eldery?
> the unhealthy who want to be healthy?
> triathletes?
> runners?
> people with bike racks on their cars?
> flyers on any and all bicycles seem parked around town?
>
> if we could decide who we wanted to attend the class (cyclists or
> noncyclists), we could figure out how to reach them.
>
> aira
>
> On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Frank Gmeindl <fgmeindl@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> That's easy for him to "say".  The issue is what is there about the course
>> that would want to make people tell other people about it?
>> Frank
>> On Feb 9, 2011, at 2:13 PM, Aira Loren Burkhart wrote:
>>
>> one more note, Andrew Walker thinks we should, per his text message, "Go
>> more viral, grassroots."
>>
>> If anyone has thoughts on what that might mean, apart from or in
>> additional to papering the town in hip illustrated posters, I'd like to hear
>> your thoughts.
>>
>> aira
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Aira Loren Burkhart <airaloren@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> My friend Sommer (a designer in Dallas) thinks that if we initially
>>> charge, we can also then have coupons or vouchers. "Buy a bike, get free
>>> lessons, a $100 value!" Might help sell some bicycles too!
>>>
>>> $45 is okay, but [confession] John and I paid $190 a person for a weekend
>>> of all day ski lessons a fee weeks ago. "For $190 a person, it better be
>>> good!" was what I said.... and it was!
>>>
>>> I think most people care more about saving time than saving money. The
>>> ski class advertised "Improve your skiing by 3-5 years in a weekend." Now,
>>> that's value! The CCC course offers the same kind of knowledge, eliminating
>>> years of trial and error. So, we should pitch it more from that angle.
>>>
>>> "save 3-5 years" justifies a substantial price, doesn't it?
>>>
>>> there were 15-20 people in the ski class and every one said they'd
>>> persuade friends to take it in the future. the price definitely didn't hurt
>>> enrollment.
>>>
>>> aira
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Frank Gmeindl <fgmeindl@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Aira and Chip.  The question is, how much should we charge
>>>> to get the most people to take the course?  If we're going to change the
>>>> price, we must change it ASAP since we already have pricing info on the
>>>> course calendar.
>>>>
>>>> Here's how I arrived at the current $45 price.  Three years ago, before
>>>> I started teaching Traffic Skills 101, I did a very cursory search of the
>>>> web for other cities' pricing.  I found prices at 3 cities.  Prices ranged
>>>> from $30 to $90.  $90 was in CA.  $30 was in NC.  So, I set a strawman price
>>>> of $60.  Then, on rides with MonBikeClub cyclists, I asked 6 riders
>>>> separately what they thought of the $60 price.  A couple said it was too
>>>> high but $30-35 seemed reasonable.  I set the price at $45.
>>>> I think it would be an excellent idea for someone to do more research on
>>>> prevailing pricing.
>>>> Just FYI, if we teach 4 participants/class with 2 instructors getting
>>>> paid $25/hr, we'd have to charge $163/participant to break even (includes
>>>> text books and other necessary expenses).  If we had 8 participants, we
>>>> would break even at $89/participant.  So, Ryan, don't get your hopes up for
>>>> a pay raise.  (Remember, the grant absorbs losses.)
>>>> So, what should we charge?
>>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 8, 2011, at 5:41 PM, Ryan Post wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ya, I’m fine with that, then you can pay the instructors more!
>>>>
>>>> That principle was actually talked about during the LCI class, put a
>>>> value on something and people want it more.  However, I’d still argue that
>>>> it doesn’t matter if they don’t know about the course. So problem is still
>>>> getting word out.  I wonder if businesses are willing to incorporate it into
>>>> their bonus programs?  I know my old company required everyone to take some
>>>> extra classes to get bonuses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 8, 2011, at 5:40 PM, Chip Wamsley wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>>>> From: Aira Loren Burkhart <airaloren@gmail.com>
>>>> Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:35:32 -0500
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Aira, putting a value on the course is important and if
>>>> people pay, they will show up.  I think we are already requiring folks to
>>>> pay first, and then complete the course to get money back--correct?
>>>> Chip
>>>>
>>>> From: Aira Loren Burkhart [mailto:airaloren@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 5:36 PM
>>>> To: chip@wamsleycycles.com
>>>> Cc: Jim Rye; Gunnar Shogren; Marilyn Newcome; Ryan Post; Elizabeth
>>>> Shogren; Hugh.Kierig@mail.wvu.edu; chip wamsley; Don Spencer; Paul Becker;
>>>> Frank Gmeindl; Bicycle Board
>>>> Subject: Re: Course participation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I know this will sound funny, but maybe this course should cost more?
>>>>
>>>> (I'm just brainstorming, so you might disagree)
>>>>
>>>> There is definitely a psychology to pricing and making the course
>>>> free/very cheap might be making it seem like it's not an important class or
>>>> like the content is low quality or something.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe the course should be advertised as costing $100 or another high
>>>> number more similar to classes people pay to take, like dancing, or music,
>>>> or art classes? Charging a lot might make it seem exclusive and legitimize
>>>> the course content.
>>>>
>>>> I think people pay more attention and have better attendance when they
>>>> have already committed their money to something. They have to then "get
>>>> their money's worth" by working hard and focusing. People sell out expensive
>>>> rock concerts but you can't expect to "pack the park" for a free community
>>>> concert. And that's because it's free, not because the content is different.
>>>>
>>>> Is this making sense to anyone else?
>>>>
>>>> "You get what you pay for" and so far, no one is getting [from us] what
>>>> they aren't paying for, right?
>>>>
>>>> So, let's charge a lot for it and see if people would prefer to pay to
>>>> play.
>>>>
>>>> aira
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Chip Wamsley <chip@wamsleycycles.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
>>>> From: Frank Gmeindl <fgmeindl@gmail.com>
>>>> Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:52:54 -0500
>>>>
>>>> Frank et al,
>>>>
>>>> I think the new business cards will be a help, 1) if bike board members
>>>> hand them out to friends to direct them to the website to get the CCC class
>>>> schedule--I'll be able to use lots at the shop 2) an 8 1/2 x 11 poster on
>>>> heavier paper that could be put up at the bike shops, rec center, coop,
>>>> moose, black bear, laundromats,  around campus etc. . . to briefly describe
>>>> course and drive people to the class--the same poster in slide form on the
>>>> city TV channel should also work well.
>>>>
>>>> Chip
>>>>
>>>> >Education Committee members,
>>>> >
>>>> >The Mar - Sep 2010 courses are scheduled at
>>>> >  http://bikemorgantown.com/calendar.php .  Recommendations for getting
>>>> > people to attend?
>>>> >
>>>> >Ads in the Dominion Post and Daily Athenaeum might make sense although
>>>> > I'd say last year, the ad in the paper actually brought less than 4
>>>> > participants.
>>>> >
>>>> >Other ideas?
>>>> >
>>>> >Frank
>>>>
>>>
>>
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